Some trolls keep thinking I’m asking for advice all of the time
I’m not
Going Gently is a journal for thoughts
It’s not a debating forum
But thank you for the more constructive comments.
It’s Saturday morning and work is finished for two days, but as there is an accident on the A 55 the two trained staff coming on have been delayed which means we will have to stay until they arrive
It’s the Apple Festival today in the Hall, an idea which came from nowhere, but I will need a sleep and the do starts at eleven, so I will miss it today.
I don’t mind. Work has been busy
I’ve observed this before, but so many people get to a ripe old age nowadays without ever properly experiencing a death. The whole process is not understood, is feared and seldom talked about.
It needs to be talked about
Myths need debunking
Fears need calming
The story of my last Ghost hen is a lesson in this need
“Some of the village children come down to the field to collect eggs. Today they came late which was lucky as I had failed to check the coops because I had been up to my brother's house for most of the day.
I dished out the obligatory enamel bowls and ten minutes later the kids darted back to the cottage to inform me that one of the hens was ill.
"I think you have a hen with asthma" the little boy informed me seriously
and he took me over to the pond to show me the breathless hen.
It was Ruth, the final ghost hen , who was gasping for breath.
The children squatted down on their haunches with interest and asked a whole load of questions as I sat down next to the hen.
"Why was she gasping? ....why was her head a dark colour?......why was her eyes shut?"
Initially I was not sure of just what to say to a couple of seven year olds, but I guessed that it was pretty much ok to tell them the truth gently and without any fuss.
So carefully I explained that the hen's heart was giving out and that she was not in any pain but she was dying, and that was why she was a strange colour and she was making an odd noise.
I also told them that she was an old hen and had lived over a year past the date. she was expected to die
The children nodded somberly and we watched the hen together for a while before they informed me that they were off home.
"will you bury her when she dies?" the boy asked before he went
"Yes I said" (I didn't have the heart to tell them that I would leave the body by the badger set in the next field)
"That's good!" he said.standing up.
By the time the kids had gone. I sat down next to Ruth and let her rest her straining head on my foot .
I didn't quite have the heart to pull her neck, and I am glad I didn't as moments later she died.”
I dished out the obligatory enamel bowls and ten minutes later the kids darted back to the cottage to inform me that one of the hens was ill.
"I think you have a hen with asthma" the little boy informed me seriously
and he took me over to the pond to show me the breathless hen.
It was Ruth, the final ghost hen , who was gasping for breath.
The children squatted down on their haunches with interest and asked a whole load of questions as I sat down next to the hen.
"Why was she gasping? ....why was her head a dark colour?......why was her eyes shut?"
Initially I was not sure of just what to say to a couple of seven year olds, but I guessed that it was pretty much ok to tell them the truth gently and without any fuss.
So carefully I explained that the hen's heart was giving out and that she was not in any pain but she was dying, and that was why she was a strange colour and she was making an odd noise.
I also told them that she was an old hen and had lived over a year past the date. she was expected to die
The children nodded somberly and we watched the hen together for a while before they informed me that they were off home.
"will you bury her when she dies?" the boy asked before he went
"Yes I said" (I didn't have the heart to tell them that I would leave the body by the badger set in the next field)
"That's good!" he said.standing up.
By the time the kids had gone. I sat down next to Ruth and let her rest her straining head on my foot .
I didn't quite have the heart to pull her neck, and I am glad I didn't as moments later she died.”
Thank you for the way you spoke to the children.
ReplyDeleteBut not thank you for the way you "failed" to check the coops. Livestock of any kind should be checked regularly.
DeleteOh dear , and I always did, but you anon was there so you know better than anyone else
DeleteYou do talk shite deArheart
What an asswipe Anonymous is. probably lives with his Mom.
DeleteShe, lives alone
DeleteHo ho John
DeleteAnon troll 0 John 1
Give up
Keith
Xx
Also it was a Thursday
DeleteI was looking after my brother on Thursday day time
He was terminally ill
That was a good experience for those children as you were there to talk to them about it in a calm and reassuring way. I suppose we fear most what we don't understand or are unfamiliar with. Perhaps we also need to be supported in our grief sometimes as that can be so overwhelming.
ReplyDeleteSorry you missed the apple festival but hope you have a much needed rest.
I did pop over thinking it was winding down and it was busy and packed .a great success
DeleteI'm 52 and haven't seen a death apart from the pets I've had to farewell.
ReplyDeleteIn a weird way, I wish I could have a practice run.
You did the right thing with those kids. It will stand them in good stead
Having a positive death experience is vital. I’ve known many people scarred for life because something simple wasn’t done. A medication not given, a misinterpretation of end of life symptoms
DeleteDeath once understood and chained in with good medical and nursing care shouldn’t provoke fear
A good way to gently teach. Just facts.
ReplyDeleteThe apple festival is a brilliant idea. Hopefully you will get to go to the next one, next year.
Absolutely younKNOW
DeleteJust simple facts simply informed
I hope that when the time comes, any death I witness will be a peaceful one.
ReplyDeleteWe all do my friend x
DeleteI too wish that people would talk about death, not in hushed tones and shaking heads, but good intelligent conversations. Not only the practicalities but the unknowns, the questions, the what ifs, how other cultures deal with it. I would love to have someone to discuss it all with. Death is one of many good reasons for children to be involved with animals if possible.
ReplyDeleteFind a Death Cafe to talk about death. So worth it
DeleteThose conversations abound in hospice care but they should start, I think in school and at home
DeleteWe can't shield our children from the fact that we are all going to die. All we can do is explain, gently and in terms they can understand, what is happening. Just as you did for those children. xx
ReplyDeleteChildren deal with death very well ,:as long as they not treated as fools, I make a point of explaining things like syringe drivers and medication to children and the “ magic box “ that helps grandma often helps the adults in the room, who;are too repressed and frightened to ask for themselves.
DeleteThat was a sad but fortunate situation I think for those kids. Death was never talked about in any healthy, helpful way. I had a friend who died in a fire when I was 12, my cousin was hit by a car when we were both 14. Except for the horrors of it, the adults never shared any wisdom (maybe they didn’t have any to share). But it took me until my 30s to have what I think is a healthy acceptance of it. In your career, you've experienced it so often, which can be enlightening or incredibly depressing.
ReplyDeleteIt’s a bit of both my friend
DeleteI was poorly the other night and I know I wasn’t working at 100% which you have to always with families
They miss nothing
John, your lovely blog gave me the strength to stay with my lovely neighbour three weeks ago while she passed away. I'd stayed two nights at the hospital playing gentle music and chatting to her. I'd settled down to spend a third night and our other neighbour came and sat with me while Joan gradually slipped away. I thought I'd be horrified and scared but Joan didn't have any family and I was determined that my friend would not die alone in a hospital bed.
ReplyDeleteHow lovely and respectful
DeleteThank you so much for doing that , it was brave
It was a privilege John.
DeleteI went out two hours ago to bring my grandchildren sweets and things they like. Considering the situation here it's like playing Russian roulette but I did it anyway. Here we do not avoid talking or dealing with death. This is a close possibility sometimes.
ReplyDelete❤️💔
DeleteKJ
Oh Yael I want peace in your corner of the world , I so do….I doubt it will come but I pray for it
DeleteIf you want my advice it's to not heed my advice because I am a troll foll de roll and I'm going to eat you for my supper!
ReplyDeleteLol
DeleteMy mother's dead body a couple of hours after death was not pretty, with her mouth agape as if in the middle of a scream. Horrific really. Could not the hospital staff closed her mouth at least? I've seen a couple of people in open coffins and I have no intention of doing that again. I remember my mother describing her father's death, the rasping breathing and then the death rattle. Sorry John, you haven't convinced me that to be there is good thing.
ReplyDeleteI remember when my Mum died, my Auntie (a retired nurse) tried to close Mum's eyes and mouth. The nurse on duty in the Nursing Home said they weren't supposed to do that (or anything, including washing, now. (He didn't stop her BTW.) I guess it's so there can be no legal repercussions, which I find rather sad. xx
DeleteSorry you have not had better experiences, Andrew. But the thing to remember is that this is not about YOU it is about and for the person passing. Quite literally their, and your, last chance.
DeleteMy much loved rescue dog died last week. Me and his brother were with him to hold and reassure him as the blessed needle brought relief. The least we could do. I hate the way some owners walk away as their companion leaves. So that the last thing they see in this world is the back of their loved one abandoning them. With animals as with people....
I’m sorry too guys
DeleteThe “ death rattle “ is scary but did your nurses explain what it was….? Did they explain your mother was deep,y unconscious and so unaware that she could no longer swallow so ant tiny secretion sounded noisy in her throat ?
Did they not administer a drug called glycopyrrolate which helps with such secretions ?
The nurses may not ensure an open mouth , but they can prepare a family member for it and explain why it happens
Death isn’t always pretty but a good nurse will make these difficult moments a little easier
Both of my parents actually died in hospital, but the long, slow process of dying happened at home. I was very young, with them dying just after my 5th and 12th birthdays. Experiences I would not wish on anyone. For many years it left me thinking that anyone I loved was just going to die on me, and soon.
ReplyDeleteAnd some people need help to look at this trauma
DeleteThat’s why there is PTSD and grief counselling
It was the 60s - nobody even asked if I was OK. Thank goodness we've improved on that.
DeleteI’m not sure
DeleteDeath was usually catered for at home with the GP OR district nurse , neighbours and friends around
No district nurse, no neighbours or relatives, and a country doctor even after we had moved into a town, so not many visits. My father didn' t want outsiders - so we three children coped on our own. 'Death catered for at home' was laughable in our circumstances.
DeleteOften older communities had an older woman who helped with the dying at those times
DeleteI’m sorryx
DeleteMy poor sister bore the brunt of it. No rubber sheets, no washing machine, a house to run, no one to advise let alone to help (she was still 16 at that point). The doctor was useless, the last few weeks of my father's death were a nightmare, and my father didn't get taken into hospital until the afternoon of the day he died. This might all sound Dickensian, but I'm sure that our case was not an isolated one, and my heart goes out every time I hear the term 'child carer'. Trauma? No, we just got on with it.
DeleteMy first experience of death was when I was very young. A lady had committed suicide by eating poisonous berries (I think), and her body was brought to our house where it was laid on an outdoor bench. I don't remember feeling too much about it. It was simply a lifeless body.
ReplyDeleteSeen as child would see it
DeleteJust reading about this poor hen breaks my heart, but I trust that if not all, then at least most of those kids took it with more resilience than some of us oldies can muster. Very aware that I've become ever more sensitive with the years. Wish it wasn't so but there you are.
ReplyDeleteRaymondo , from the first time I met you here , you have always been a gentle man who breaks his heart easily ..I love you for that
DeleteThanks so much, JayGee, even if it's a feature I wish wasn't in me.
DeleteI have been close, but not there at the moment of death.
ReplyDeleteI hope you have the support you need when it happens xx
DeleteHi John (Jackie here - yes the one in Georgia USA). As you know, I have 3 blogs. Two were/are my journals and one was to document our first year with my sweet dog. The reason I stopped them were the trolls. You handle it so much better than I was capable of. However, I saw how much good can come from an online community and I missed that. So, I started following you and Weaver and it makes my days richer and more complete. Thank you for that. I will also add that, for those that have never had farm animals, it is difficult to understand when it comes to situations such as an animal's death and dying. I did not understand when I married a farmer as I was a city girl. I wish people were not so quick to judge and send off hateful comments. Have a good day and thank you for being brave enough to continue sharing your life with us. Jackie
ReplyDeleteLovely to have you here, and thank you so very much xx
DeleteSeems to me that death - like birth - is varied and individual with some experiences being more bearable ( sorry perhaps not the right word there) but, surely yes, the more open we can be in discussing the facts of what we might expect at end of life the less fear is felt at the unknown.
ReplyDeleteAlison in Wales x
Nurses should make the end of life more bearable for relatives ,ive always known that from day one of nursing, I get annoyed that people often get poor palliative care
DeleteI think you handled that perfectly John. During the 23 years David and I had together I experienced a few deaths - farm cats (who prefer you to leave them be in my ex-perience), one farm dog who had a stroke and died a gentle death, several calves/lambs who were too weak to survive after their birth (often a twin, or a very difficult birth). You have been in a profession where you must have been present at many deaths - I only hope that when my turn comes (won't be all that long - am 91 this week) I have someone as sensitive and caring as you by my side. x
ReplyDeleteI would be honoured to be at your side you old trooper xx
DeleteI think many children are fascinated by death. It's adults who shield them from knowledge of it causing fear of it later on.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was about 10 yrs old, I asked my mother why the living room curtains were closed in the middle of the day. She gently told me that the man who lived opposite had died and his funeral was today. Closed curtains was a mark of respect. As quickly as I could ( childish discretion) I snuck upstairs to snoop, I then pinched myself very hard because I must be a very bad person to be both snooping and not crying. Everyone should cry at funerals I thought.. as an adult I cry at every funeral even the one I accidentally went to where I didn’t even know the deceased.
DeleteI learned about death from my grandparents who talked to us as equals about the wartime bombing of Liverpool.
DeleteThey talked about death with sensitivity and answered our questions with honesty
They were my hero’s
Still are
I haven't been with a person as they died but have seen them soon afterward. I was glad they were at peace.
ReplyDeleteGood ….good
DeleteA few weeks ago, one of the family who was suffering from cancer he wanted to die. He is an American living in Switzerland, luckily? he was dissuaded from this and went onto have an operation. But he went to 'Exit' an organisation I had never heard of. I haven't read the information on the site but it does open the wider subject of death. I experienced when my Paul died, just the quietness and gradual loss of the living person that was Paul. He did indeed pass from one world to another.
ReplyDeleteThe moment when life leaves a body is definitive
DeleteYou know
I imagine your thoughtful words about Ruth's dying helped those former 7 year olds see life and death with less angst. It's natural.
ReplyDeleteHugs!
Children in hospital settings are often fearful when visiting but deal with things much better than adults as long as things are explained simply and without patronising
DeleteFor many, out of fear, the topic of death is taboo. Having seen several relatives die and be at their side, it is a familiar process. It is an eventuality for us all. Live each day to the fullest is my motto.
ReplyDeletePhysical conditions such as terminal agitation, delirium and hypoxia all need to be treated promptly by people who KNOW what they are doing and with medications strong enough to cope
DeleteI was with my mum in hospital when she died. It felt like an honour, more so as she died on my birthday, and the nurse that was present just allowed me to be with her. It was a peaceful death, my mother was on the Liverpool Care Pathway which I don’t think is practised anymore. A couple of years later I found my dad dead in his own bed mid-morning. I knew as soon as I unlocked his front door that something was wrong. Fortunately the meals on wheels ladies arrived soon after and I had immediate support as I was in a state of shock and did not know what to do. As my dad died alone and wasn’t poorly we had to have a post mortem to determine the cause of death. In September 2020 my eldest brother died and that was terrible as he died very quickly from cancer that was not being treated because of Covid and then he was in hospital and it was all too late. He was only 62. In 2018 my daughter studied for a Masters in Medical Humanities focusing on end of life care. She studied across three schools: Humanities, Law and Medicine and I know she found it a difficult year of study. England specifically is very bad at talking about the end of life, which is strange as it comes to us all. My husband has Parkinson’s and we’ve just completed all the paperwork for Lasting Power of Attorney covering medical and health aspects as well as property and finance so we’ve had the conversations we need to have and have written our wishes down for each other and for our children. It has felt cathartic writing this in a blog comment - thank you John. Let us go gently. Sarah in Sussex
ReplyDeleteSarah , you have outlined much better than I, many of the multifaceted dilemmas centred around death.
DeleteIn my experience , once people understand the physical stages death exhibits, they cope much better with things.
Granny no longer dies in the corner of the living room surrounded by grandchildren and neighbours
Answering their questions calmly and in a manner they would understand was a wonderful thing to do, John dear.
ReplyDeleteHope you've slept well, and are feeling much better.
Physically I’m still poorly I’m afraid
DeleteThis post took me back to the first time I was with someone as they died. My aunt (81) was at home, with morphine on a syringe driver, and I had an SOS from her granddaughter. My cousin, an only child, would need support as the granddaughter was due to go on holiday. Of course, I went from Yorkshire to Bristol without hesitation and helped my cousin through a very emotional few days. A few days later, the granddaughter decided she wouldn't go on holiday with her husband and two sons and asked me to go home. So I sent my cousin to bed to catch up on much needed sleep, and I sat with my aunt, just chatting about the change of plans etc. A few minutes later, my aunt's breathing changed so I woke my cousin and, as soon as she came into the room and hugged and spoke to her mother, my aunt exhaled loudly and died. It was early enough to enable her granddaughter to set off on their holiday. This experience helped me cope with being present at both my father's death in 2016 (87 years old, catastrophic stroke) and my mother's death in August 2023 (95 years old, colonic cancer but, basically, old age?) I held their hands, told them I loved them and they literally just slipped away. I emailed my in laws and told them that my mother had lived a good life, and had the good death that she deserved. I truly believe that having close family at the moment of death makes a passing more natural and comforting. Sorry for the long comment but I also really believe death needs to be part of life. I involved my granddaughters in both their great grandad and great nanny's funerals. The circle of life is something that children can accept and needs to be regarded as normal. I still cry about my mother, but I also cherish the memory of her last moments.
ReplyDeleteBeautifully and movingly written
DeleteI couldn’t have observed this better
Thankfully you have the experience to be able to share the dying with those children.
ReplyDeleteAnd it helped x
DeleteReminds me when I had a patient die, it was an expected death.
ReplyDeleteThe relatives as always came and went, dawdled about the ward. Then I suddenly heard it all kicking off, screaming and abuse. I shot round the corner set to remind them where we all where and kick some of them out.
Three of the patients grown up sons had got hold of the forth brother and were trying to carry him into the side room to see dad for his last time. 'Because it would be good for him to see the body'
Well I did make them put their brother who was hanging onto the door frame at this point, down. Explaining to them it was his choice to see his dad, no one else's. 'No nurse he has to see him, for the last time'. They did let it drop eventually as I took the brother for a cup of tea. He was in a right state.
He told me that he had already seen his dad for the last time. I've never understood why people 'have to see the dead body'. I thoroughly believe it up to the individual.
I didn't see either of my parents when dead, because they do not look the same.
An awful lot about death is hidden from view and people need educating and about choice.
Well written
DeleteYes it’s all about choice
You give the family a choice and a way out if they want to take it.
That’s imperative in our hospice care.
So many relatives say at the end , I think I will go home now and pose it as a question .our nod of acceptance is vital for that person to be able to cope and see themselves as ok
It’s ok to do what you can
I don't believe in shielding children from reality, but I do soften it a little. Jack knows that Lucy died peacefully. He doesn't know how his grandpa died, that's a discussion for when he's older.
ReplyDeleteI forget that so many people in the West have little experience with death and dying. It's not painful, as a rule, and for me, it's a time of grace when the soul is leaving the body.
That poor chicken, I'm glad you were there for her, although the photo made me cry. Death is normal but it's sad too.
Children hate not to be included
DeleteDeath shouldn’t exclude them
Death definitely doesn't exclude them. Any kids with glioblastomas come to us for radiation and they all need an MRI, which is where I come in. Glios are fatal and it's heartbreaking watching the parents.
DeleteSkipping home from school, aged 11 (everybody skipped back in the day). Anyway, not quite reaching home, l saw my mother in the street, she was dressed in black head to foot and weeping, she announced that my father had died at home earlier that afternoon and she was awaiting the undertakers to arrive and take him away!
ReplyDeleteProfound effect on me or what!
Apparently Dennis Nielson, (aged 5) l think, saw his grandfathers dead body in the sitting room of his home and that also had a profound effect on him.
Unlike D.N. it didn't make me go on to murder anyone!
My Greek friend died and at the funeral we all shuffled past an open coffin in the Church. I couldn't look but just sort of moved past not looking at her .
Having sat on a cold hard floor at the vets, with various animals as they were P T S , l can manage the death but l really don't think l can do it with people.
Something for your studies dear friend? Tess
Seeing a body can be cushioned by how that child is supported in that moment
ReplyDeleteYou were gentle and truthful with the children and I trust that your honesty will serve them well in their lives. Death is still not discussed much and it certainly was not discussed in my formative years. Even having worked in medicine for 40 years and consoling many grieving patients.....I had no adequate preparation for deaths of family or friends close to me...... until my own parents death several years ago. the Hospice nurses were angels to me (and with my folks) and I know it was only with their help, counsel, and gentle guidance that I was somewhat prepared and able to cope.
ReplyDeleteSusan M/ Calif.
I have to also acknowledge that trained hospice nurses usually have three to four patients to oversee
DeleteWe have the time to do things properly
Our nhs counterparts often have 16 +
well, John....very good point! Though I believe the Hospice nurses I *worked with* had more than 3 or 4 patients to oversee......whenever I needed them most......I felt as if I were the only person in their world at that moment that mattered..... for however long I needed them.....and that meant more to me than I can say. In many ways, one of the most meaningful experiences of my life
DeleteSusan M/ Calif.
,no the accepted ratio is usually 1 to 3
DeleteI believe that death is as holy a moment as birth. I believe that kids should understand death, but like your little friends when your chicken were dying, I think they should be allowed to "head for home" (determine when they've dealt with enough). In the house we are rehabbing there was a suitcase of old photos. One of them is a death photo. A little girl with the most terrified expression on her face is sitting next to who I guess is her sister. The sister is quite obviously dead. Death was a part of life in the mid 1800s but honestly, I'm not sure that the intimate knowledge of it was a positive thing.
ReplyDeleteMy husband died at home seven months ago. I was with him but stepped back in his final seconds. It was his time,
ReplyDeletehumbling and yet a privilege to witness. My son, who is a doctor and had just flown in from Australia was in the next room sleeping. I didn’t wake him. I stayed with my husband for five minutes then woke him and placed a call for our oldest son to come home. We wrapped Gerry in his mother’s quilt and sat with their dad for an hour before we called the Pallative nurse and doctor.
It was an honour.
Well done x
DeleteWhat a splendid post. My brother's kids routinely deal with the death of chickens and they are not afraid to discuss the topic.
ReplyDeleteI held first my mothers hand as she died 18 years ago, then my fathers 8 years ago now. Such a special magical moment to be with them as they eased from this world.
ReplyDelete