Many years ago I asked my best male friend, Mike for a pint in Sheffield.
He jumped at the chance to have a Thursday night out at The Dog And Partridge.
The pub was always warm and welcoming and full of amateur folk singers and our nights out together were always full of chatter and banter about film, current affairs, news and gossip.
That night, however, I had an agenda.
For that night I had decided to come out to him.
I knew Mike very well, and thought deep down that everything would be alright, but as he was straight and a typical no nonsense working class married Yorkshireman I was surprised to suddenly find myself very nervous and fearful of a reaction I didn't want and more importantly couldn't cope with if everything went tits up.
I told him after a spirited group rendition of The Irish Rover
And afterwards he sat silently for a moment looking at his pint glass.
After what seemed like an age ( but wasn't) he nodded and said in his broad Sheffield brogue
" Does that mean I have to occasionally go a gay bar with you ?"
" Perhaps!" I replied and he nodded again
" ok!" He said brightly " it's your round!"
And that was as it should be.
ReplyDeletexo
I second this thought!
DeleteMe too.
DeleteMinutes before you published this I published a mention of how I tire of coming out all the time. It is great that your mate accepted your sexuality, but why should he not? I am feeling very grumpy, sorry. I wore my sexuality out there when I was younger, challenging so, but I just can't be bothered any more.
ReplyDeleteIt was a long time ago when things were different
DeleteOh, it was so different, I remember being so afraid that people would figure it out. In college I came out to two of my best friends, one insisted that I change and then never spoke to me again. But that was 60 years ago.
DeleteI thought like Andrew. Why shouldn't he? Isn't that how friends should be whereever you live?
ReplyDeleteIt was a long time ago in a land different than todays
DeleteI think by perpetuating stories like these gays will always be stuck in a time warp of believing they are different and wanting it to be belueved they are different. I don't think it is a good thing in 2017.
DeleteWhy do people have to come out anyway these days. Is sexual orientation uppermost on people's minds? I note you said this was written for an old friend who who was having difficulties. Was this recent?
DeleteObviously, John will answer you himself.
DeleteI do agree with you, Rachel. It is such a non issue these days that, occasionally, I find it vaguely something, not sure what (unnecessary?), for gays to harp on about the fact that they are gay. To be fair, it's a generational thing. Maybe the reason John is relating this story that there was a time when it was a BIG thing. And though, to you and me (as you say 2017) it's neither here nor there, people do have to work through their reminiscences and how they were affected, at the time, and in their own time.
But yes, well put, I too ask myself why people think that "sexual orientation" is "uppermost on people's minds". It isn't.
By way of a little anecdote and to illustrate how serious an issue it still does seem to gays, a friend of mine, roughly John's age, threw me out with the bathwater, ca. 2009, when I used the word "preference" instead of "orientation". What the hell? Why am I supposed to be familiar with the precise lingo? I was very upset how little it took to overturn what was a great relationship between a straight woman and a gay if somewhat messed up guy. Ever since I try to see egg shells before they crack underneath my feet.
U
The story was from thirty years ago. Things are different tiday
DeleteDifferent for many but look around. There is still bigotry
DeleteRachel, I found your language disturbing--"perpetuating stories like these"? If you are unaware of the profound difficulties gay people have faced and continue to face, I guess that's good for your peace of mind, but not for mine. Perhaps because I'm a Yank, I see it differently, but this is not the only country threatening gays with violent death. So maybe you didn't read about what happened in Orlando,Florida (it's not a generational thing). But your lack of awareness amazes me. And Ursula, you ask why should you learn the ways your friends want you to refer to their basic identity? Gosh, maybe because that's what friends do. I'm trying to not sum you up in some very negative descriptors, but I will say that I think you need to pull your head out.
DeleteI think you misunderstood me. Nevermind.
DeleteI am afraid you jumped to the wrong conclusion, Kate. Of course I wanted to learn. Of course, I wanted (and now more than ever) to make sure I didn't say the wrong thing. However, it appears to be so very easy to do so - hence my reference to egg shells.
DeleteI said "preference" once, just the once, in a written communication. It was an innocent mistake. He blew up. I apologized - profusely. Said, that as I am not familiar with all the finer points of the lingo but obviously happy to learn (your point) and, of course, happy to stand corrected when I get it wrong, I may be forgiven. Unfortunately, no doing. His psychiatrist has to lot to answer for. But that's another story. I still can't get my hear round it. Took me some years to get over the loss of that friendship as we shared so many interests and were so very fond of each other.
So maybe, Kate, it'd be nice if heterosexuals were given a little slack by the LGBT community.
U
You have good friends!
ReplyDeleteYorkshire folk are well-known for their broadmindedness. By the way, I have also sunk a few pints in "The Dog and Partridge" but nowadays it's not special like it used to be.
ReplyDeleteTrue friends stick by you.
ReplyDeleteI agree back in the day being Gay was a whole different kettle of fish. Now it is not as big of a "thing" and a lot of people don't bat an eyelid about it. You have/had a good friend there........
ReplyDeleteMy best friend wasn't nearly as open, but you live amd you learn.
ReplyDeleteGlad you had Mike.
You were very lucky. I had mixed experiences with friends. One never forgave me for lying to her. My best male friend said he didn't care, but all he wanted to talk about every time we went out was our single, "cruising-for-chicks" life. Another was supposed to come to Boston on business and stay with me. He cancelled the trip. His wife continued to send Christmas cards every year but, no matter how many times I signed mine from us both, she addressed theirs only to me. Ah well. Much better times now!
ReplyDeleteAs others have said, you have good friends. Did you buy the next round?
ReplyDeleteThe past is a foreign country: they do things differently there
ReplyDeleteGreat quote!!
DeleteI love his answer.
ReplyDeleteHaving lived in both London and Brighton, I'm not sure if I've been to a Gay Bar or not (if you see what I mean).
ReplyDeleteYou would know if you had.
DeleteThanks for the early morning smile! Years ago, I invited a fellow we'd recently met over for lunch. He came into the kitchen as I was setting the table and said, "I should tell you I'm gay."
ReplyDeleteI turned and said, "Okay. I should tell you I'm pregnant, and lunch is ready. Could you give me a hand?"
We were friends for many years.
This blog was written in support of a fellow blogger who couldn't quite come out to an old friend
DeleteUm... sorry for the smile? If they're old friends, then spoken or not, I can't imagine it would be a surprise. Or a problem. And if it would be, is that really a "friend"?
DeleteI don't mean to sound naive, but this is 2017 for God's sake.
DeleteThe first time perhaps is still tough for some people
DeleteReading a book right now on the subject of being gay in Ireland in the middle years of the 20th century. "The Heart's Invisible Furies," by John Boyne.
ReplyDeleteExcellent.
Common sense kind of a guy......keep those rounds in order lol.
ReplyDeleteexcellent response. good for him.
ReplyDeleteCute story.
ReplyDeleteA good way to tell if a good friend really is. (a true good friend)
He passed the test with a 'distinction' - just as you had done before him, but in a rather different way.
ReplyDeleteA good story and a good friend.
ReplyDeleteHe knew what's important in life -- whose round it is!
ReplyDeleteGood friend there.
ReplyDeleteI think you made him happy, too. It's such a relief all around to just understand.
ReplyDeleteJohn, - once upon a time (my father died in 1945)and self 'grew up' in a two female household (mother and grandmother)for my first 5 years -
ReplyDeleteNever really was bothered or wondered WHO i should be - or become.
apparently became some sort of random philosopher.
Did i, in my age 20's, experimentented with homosexuality? Yep - and at this point if my name be known - may well be accused of 'multiple sexual experiences'.
Were they "inappropriate" 40 years ago?
What fascinates me, at this time, is the continuing power, and force - of the dogma of Roman Church ..
Which seems, to me, more about "thou shalt NOT" ..than thou shalt be.
('tis a complicated, and very long story; of how we, "europeans" have been 'brainwashed' by the Roman Church).
A very nice story. It is hard for people of a certain age to understand what it must have been like at that time.
ReplyDeleteI do remember in the late seventies my younger cousin “came out” at a family gathering. We were all so relieved that he had “officially” told us and we didn’t have to pretend any longer.
I am so lucky to have such a super group of cousins. We all love to be together whenever possible.
Regards and thanks Janine
Some here don't understand why coming out is still a thing. Most people automatically assume everyone is straight. That assumption and it's accompanying expectations is obvious in their conversation and social interactions. It puts gay people in an awkward position. Someone asks a lesbian, "Do you have a boyfriend." She can simply answer "No." This may not be someone she knows well and so she does not say, "But I have a girl friend" or "I don't date men." That would be too much information in response to a casual question. So she let's it go. The next time they meet, she is awkwardly trapped in that person's unchallenged assumptions. At what point does she decide to come out to her new friend? It's not simple although it might appear so to straight people.
ReplyDelete"lets" not "let's"
DeleteThe thing is, it is no big deal to the other person and it is once again the gay person making it into a big deal.
Delete"Do you have a boyfriend?" It's an uncouth question to ask - regardless of gender or orientation.
DeleteI do agree with Rachel that some, though by no means all, gay people do make it into a "big deal". Please do see my response to Rachel's earlier comment upstream in the thread. I am interested as to your take on it, Shawn. Live and learn and all that ...
U
I'm not so sure about that. My sister in law said she was pleased that "the gays" hadn't got to either of my sons. One of them is gay but she doesn't know.
DeleteA while back I was talking to someone who knows my son about his boyfriend. It turned out that she didn't know he was gay. Whilst it turned out ok, it was clear to me that he would prefer to chose who he comes out to.
He was bullied in school about being gay, so I think he has the right to make choices like that for himself. I was wrong to think that it didn't matter.
I think Ursula and Rachel are dead wrong. If they haven't been through it, they just don't know how heteronormal life is and certainly WAS even thirty years ago. You have to see that perspective. Sure the worry of acceptance of gay people coming out is certainly the gay person's problem, but history ( and not too far away history) has shown prejudice rife!
DeleteMike is a good guy...like I said I sorta knew it would be ok.......the Prof only a few years before had some VERY different reactions
DeleteDo you think I just dropped off the cabbage leaf John? I think you miss the point I was making in my first comment but whatever, I actually think we are ALL right, you, me and Ursula.
DeleteAgreed...but the fear of rejection for being just you was very real to be and is now very real for many others
DeleteI'm pretty sure that fellow blogger would greatly appreciate this supportive post. Positive coming out stories are uplifting. People have to understand that when you grow up being told that gay people are wrong, sick or that they are immoral, you can't just wave your magic wand and say it's 2017 everything is ok now.
ReplyDeleteThey should do.. because it's true
DeleteYou must have been relieved, John. I think those who say 'well, why wouldn't he have accepted it' don't have the ability to put themselves in another person's shoes, only their own. It's one thing to be blase when you don't live the life; it's another to be one of the actual group being marginalized, looked at sideways, and even persecuted.
ReplyDeleteMike was/is a true friend and, as my wife said, "way cool." Great story, John.
ReplyDeleteI love this.
ReplyDeleteThe kind of friend everyone wants.
ReplyDeleteI hope you took him to a gay bar. He sounds like someone who would have fun no matter where he was as long as he was with people he liked.
ReplyDeleteIt will be nice, if the day ever comes when sexuality is irrelevant. Too many people still care about what people do with one another.
Only the once and his wife came with us....one of his wife's best mates is a lesbian so they boasted one each
DeleteI hope you keep that friend and it has lasted all your life long up until this present day.
ReplyDeleteI like Mike!
ReplyDeleteU would jimbo
Delete"It's your round" sounds like a very practical response to your surprise announcement.
ReplyDeleteYou have the best friends!
ReplyDeleteDebbie
I do indeed
DeleteMade me smile after a rough day, thank you
ReplyDeleteBecause today you made me smile.......
ReplyDeleteI must apologize for my dreary comment
after your post about the mirrors.
However, I am still.....well, you know.
That's a lovely story !!!!
ReplyDeleteThis made me smile
ReplyDeleteA perfect reaction :-)
ReplyDeleteGood friend to have.
ReplyDeleteI have to say, are we now living in an era where complaining about or acknowledging homophobia is considered in and of itself a form of homophobia? Yes, in a perfect world nobody should care about another person's sexual orientation, but they DO.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteBy the same token, nobody should care about another person's skin color, but, here in the USA anyway, we argue (or worse) over it, and no man should should force himself sexually upon a woman (or another man, for that matter) but nobody told that to Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Bill O'Reilly, etc.
ReplyDeletePerfection is a goal, not the reality.
Interesting to read your perspective as the “coming-outer.” Caused me to recall twenty years or so ago when over a period of several months I experienced three different married straight women come out to me. None of them knew of the others, and weren’t friends of each other. Was quite an unusual experience in my life as a married straight woman myself. I was the first they had told and when I later asked why I had been told, one good friend said it was a trial effort for possible further eventual revelations to others — that she thought I would be open-minded/accepting and because she trusted I would keep her confidence, whatever my reaction, since she wasn’t ready to reveal herself to others yet. Her comments were very humbling and, of course, I did respect that request. Ultimately they did all divorce and live with their new companions elsewhere. I still view that as a most unusual coincidental series of events in my life, all in one period of time. Never had that happen even once before or since. I must confess to initially shocking the person on the third occasion when I began to laughingly wonder if there was something in the air in our small town. I did reassure her that it was okay, just that I had unexpectedly recently heard this from others twice before.
ReplyDeleteJust found you via Joyce at Octoberfarm. When my son came out to me at age 23, I called one of my old high school friends who is gay to ask what he suggested were good things a mother could do for a son who is just coming out...essentially, how could I "do it right?" After dispensing good ideas, the statement Matt made that has stayed with me ever since is, "Gently warn him...I thought when I came out at 19 that that would be it; but I have 'come out' again and again for nearly 40 years. He'll have to come out in every new job, every new friendship, every new social situation." As a heterosexual woman who has never had to proclaim herself as such in any life situation in all my 48 years, I dream of a world where my son, and my friend Matt, and my other pals who are gay, don't have to feel what you felt broaching the topic with your friend. In the mean time, thank heavens for friends like yours and siblings like my son enjoys, who make protective mothers' hearts soar, by virtue of their simple, shoulder-shrugging acceptance. Cheers.
ReplyDelete